A couple of people I’ve spoken to about this seem to be very decided about which station is best for Crossrail2 – but I am not sure at all. The idea is to link Surrey and south-west London with north-east London and Hertfordshire, and originally two of the stations en route were to be Alexandra Palace and Turnpike Lane. Then Haringey Council suggested that a station at Wood Green (next to the current one) would help regenerate the area, replacing AP and Turnpike Lane.
There's a map here Crossrail2.pdf (sorry, it seems to lose bits if I try pasting it into the post). The brown lines on the map are crossrail2 – the alternative routes should be dotted, but I did not manage to do that (there’s also a branch going from Dalston to Tottenham Hale and on to Broxbourne). (blue lines are existing underground lines, magenta are overground). South of Dalston, the line would go to Angel, Euston St. Pancras, Tottenham Court Rd, Victoria and on south-west ...
Advantages of having the stations at Alexandra Palace and Turnpike Lane, I think, being principally that (apart from the convenience to local residents)
- passengers on the Hertford Line (as well as those on the Welwyn line) would be able to connect to the new line at AP (this would not be possible if Wood Green were used)
- visitors to events at Alexandra Palace – who are expected to increase in numbers – might be channelled into the new station via what is now a lay-by on the palace side of the current footbridge, thus reducing the annoyance for residents living around there (who have been complaining).
- passengers coming to Turnpike Lane bus station could connect to the new line
Disadvantages:
- the works would involve many years of disruption around Station Road/St. Michaels Terrace/Avenue Gardens
Advantages of having a station at Wood Green:
- it would provide an additional rail link for north Tottenham, which is very lacking in them compared with south Tottenham (see map)
- the works would not cause as much disuption, using an ?empty BT exchange and the Vue/Hollywood Green cinema building (hopefully replacing it with less of an eyesore!). Apparently Haringey want this to be part of a new town centre.
Maybe the Council are thinking of attracting developers to gentrify the area - is this a good idea? I certainly don't think we need any in the Alexandra Park neighbourhood.
… any more views/opinions on Crossrail2?
Replies
I just received this from Cllr Gail Engert, leader of the Liberal Democrat Group on the Council:
"Last week, Haringey Lib Dems submitted our response to the Crossrail 2 consultation ... with the results of our survey.
The survey found 78.5% of local residents who responded, backed the Alexandra Palace/Turnpike Lane route and only 21.5% backed the Wood Green Station route. Many residents expressed concerns about the construction work, 32.3% of local residents had a negative view of the shaft at Downhills Park with 16.9% of those people having a very strong negative view.
In our consultation response, we set out the reasons for backing the Alexandra Palace route, over the Wood Green Station route:
Thanks very much - this is helpful. I am also worried about the shaft in Downhills Park if the Wood Green option were to be selected.
Thank you for that link. Much could be learnt from the West Hampstead Neighbourhood Develpment Forum site. In the Minutes of their latest meeting of the (Nov. 2015), among many other proposals, one struck me as infinitely sensible and important to take on board - "We should focus on shaping development – not just objecting". IN public consultation we residents often fail to adopt a pragmatic and strategic approach that best protect our collective interests (and save our local authorities tons of money spent on PR and dealing with objections and arguments, even spurious ones).
We have failed in my neighbourhood a few times (in the past 20 years that I have lived here), when voices of reason/accommodation were drowned by intransigent /emotional ones or when apathy of many left too few engaged (usually those with narrow interests, pet hates or time on their hands - not a good combination in any endevor) and we consequently lost power to influence the planned developments to the best of our collective interests.
Local Councillors just up the Hertford Line have been promoting the (original) AP option to constituents to input as the better travel option. That makes sense from here and I’m already looking forward to popping out for a morning coffee on the Kings Road after a brief train journey. Wood Green looks a little more area-development rather than transport-centric in its core positioning. I guess the real reason to spend £billions on transport is optimising the transport, and then see what other benefits can be made to accrue. But what it probably does highlight rather well is that something of this scale – and cost – has a huge consultee market and so inevitably requires lots of compromise.
External triggers such as this, or illegal sex shops it seems, can provide powerful triggers for local bonding, understanding and community action. Susie had recently pointed me to one such result, www.ndpwesthampstead.org.uk a locality who came together when their space was identified as an intensification area and who since appear to have developed an acceptable route ahead. I guess there’s going to be more of these as the consequences of the new London Plan’s population figures start to roll out into specific demands within Boroughs. Enfield’s first stage awareness consultation is live now. It may not prove to be pretty. Time to clear those diaries perhaps.
Well yes, commuters on the Hertford line would obviously want the station to be at AP - but then, north Tottenham also has its transport needs (not just about area-development)! But as you say, nothing like this to get people talking. And the west hampstead group look very interesting.
Kate - great to get galvanized! I agree about joining the quadrants of London - a particular bee in my bonnet is the absence of bus links between Muswell Hill/Wood Green and Hampstead - the transport planners seem to think that never the twain should meet! Except for schoolchildren - a bus runs over there once in the morning and once at going-home time, I believe. And these areas are really so close.
I think lively conversation and community bonding over an illegal live sex joint is the most wonderfully English thing I've ever heard :)
At the moment, I seem to spend all my time working and commuting, which can lead to feeling very disconnected. At the very least, it seems that Crossrail has stimulated my sense of community - as an Alexandra Palace resident and a Londoner - and made me more aware of a lot of local issues. I hope I can become more involved in future.
Thank you for getting back to me. I haven't really been able to talk about this with many people, and I've been going round and round all the arguments for days. It is nice to have a place to share these things...
Kate, you are quite right to be concerned; we all are. I didn't think you were unduly emotional; there is nothing wrong with wanting to preserve the trees; we don't have enough of them and each is precious. It is just that I had been in doubt about pros and cons of either site and only decided that Alexandra Palace was better after talking to a neighbour of mine, so I wanted to share my belatedly found wisdom.
One of the issues that preoccupies my neighbours and me is how the drilling might affect our properties as we already get mild tremors from trains, particularly heavy freight ones. Then for the commuters, the issue will be Ally Pally station, which is already difficult to use - with too many trains cancelled, delayed etc... The list is endless.
But, living in my immediate neighbourhood has never been a suburban experience and, for all its challenges, that is what I like about it. We didn't much like an illegal live sex joint set up behind the shops (or the parking problems it caused), but the conversations it triggered in the neighbourhood provided much amusement and got us all better acquainted with one another. The police and the Council got involved and the place was closed. When we feel a real sense of the community is when we are pulling together to protect our joint interests. It is tricky when those diverge, like with control parking. But never dull. You will find that round here we are really a village, certainly a community. Debating issues and talking to each other us what makes us it.
Thank you for the information about the new developments in Hornsey, Indijana - I was not aware of that.
I was also very conflicted on the options, which is why it took me until the last day to respond. I take your point about the trees... and I am aware that that part of my response is an emotional one (other parts less so). I have read a lot of strong arguments for the AP/TL option and if Crossrail does come to Alexandra Palace, I will try to be philosophical about it. I was just hoping that if I entered my concerns into the consultation, there might be a chance of minimising the disturbance to local residents and to the area.
I am sure if Crossrail determine that Alexandra Palace is the right place for a station to be, they will go ahead and site it here. But if there is a chance that they can maybe make slight accommodations for local residents, that might make the whole process less wearing.
I completely agree that the borough faces huge challenges in terms of transport, development and the protection of its historic and natural assets. I hope that Haringey Council will be more responsive to residents' concerns about these issues than they seem to have been in the past.
I missed sending my response as I could not make up my mind on what would be the best option for the whole area; but have, belatedly, decided that Alexandra Palace will be a better option overall. I live in a safeguarded zone, a stone throw from where the works will be, so reason had to prevail over sentiments for me to reach such a conclusion.
The trees along St Michael Terrace can be protected, but in any case, trees grow again. What we decide now on such a major project as Crossrail 2 will in part be our legacy too. Much has been done in Haringey in the past that is regrettable with a hindsight. Putting the Crossrail 2 station on Wood Green site would be another mistake.
The new homes planned will not be built in Alexandra Park - there is no available land for it - but in Hornsey, on the site of the old fires station and public baths. It is going to be a high density development and the existing overground line is already at peak times operating at full capacity and over. The transport links will only get worse with the extra development and more bus routes and buses will be needed to provide links with Wood Green hub of stations. And that is just one of the things that concerns me. Then there is the Palace, the Wood Green itself which has already been ravaged by over-development, etc, etc...
I've just looked again at the map and seen how much of Avenue Gardens would be taken up by the worksite. That would be horrible. It is a lovely little green, especially in spring when the trees along St Michael's Terrace are in blossom, and who knows what they would need to do to it in the 5-8 years of construction. And in the end only restore "most" of it.
I don't want to be a nimby, but the green is one of the things that attracted us to this area and it would break my heart to see it wrecked. Damn it all to hell.
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